So yesterday, after the Oakland A’s played the Seattle Mariners, the septic system at the Oakland Coliseum backed up and sent raw sewage into the locker room showers, sending both teams running for the upstairs football locker rooms, where they showered together. (But not, you know, that kind of showering together, hyuk hyuk.) Tragically, no animated GIFs have emerged of this moment, but it did give Oakland’s A’s execs a new argument for insisting that they need a new stadium:
Asked about his team’s need for a new stadium, team president Michael Crowley said, “It’s clear, right? This isn’t the first time this has happened.”
I’m not actually sure that faulty plumbing is generally considered grounds for demolition, but it’s still better than saying nobody wants to play there because they’re afraid they’ll trip on the grass.
This might actually be the final straw. Raw sewage flooding the clubhouse level means the stadium has some very bad underlying issues that make it unsafe for human habitation without them being repaired. And I question whether the JPA (Oakland and Alameda County), have the wherewithal to make said repairs to the stadium.
Neil, I’m surprised you haven’t covered this one:
http://www.kqed.org/news/story/2013/02/25/116965/uc_berkeley_struggles_with_unproven_stadium_funding_model
I know it’s Cal, but come on, look at those PSL prices.
Dan, if they can’t afford, say, $2M in repairs to this facility, I’m not convinced they can afford, say, $350M to replace it, either. They can’t afford to fix the Toyota, so the answer is to buy a new Mercedes?
I think San Jose is the answer.
Seven posts before 11 am this morning! I had to stop for a bowl of cereal!
Mike I agree. San Jose is the only answer currently on the table. Oakland doesn’t have the financials to upkeep the Coliseum to say nothing of building a new ballpark. A new private ballpark doesn’t pencil out in Oakland and would be a money loser for anyone who tried it. That leaves San Jose’s largely private ballpark plan or parts elsewhere. And if the JPA can’t fix the Coliseum I’d have to wonder how much longer MLB and the MLBPA will allow one of their teams to play in a park where players could be swimming in shit in the shower after a game.
The JPL still owes about $100 million for the renovation (aka mount davis) that brought back the Raiders.
Apparently from the news last night this is not the first time this has happen, it happened only in the vistors locker room a few years ago.
Dan you speak to the facts but the oakland only crowd would say this:
Dont talk San Jose, if you do you hate Oakland!! If LW was a real owner and not a liar and profitier he would privately build a stadium in oakland, have no seat licences, keep tickets dirt cheap, free parking on tuesdays, $2 tickets on Wed, let the people in the bleachers in for free, and still keep star player by paying big salaries. Who cares if its a loser its not our money!!
It’s certainly possible that there are “severe underlying issues” with the stadium (other than it’s physical age, of course, which everyone seems to focus on). It’s also possible that maintenance has been delayed or cancelled over the years while wrangling over a new facility has taken place. It happened in San Francisco with Candlestick and many other locations. It’s also what people do with their used cars (to extend the Toyota/Merc analogy a little). If you are trading the beater in next year, you don’t spend $4,000 on maintenance over the summer… even if you actually need to.
The fact is that electrical & mechanical upgrades occur as part of regularly budgeted capital investment in any sports facility (even the decade old ones – see other articles posted during Neil’s busy morning etc).
With all due respect to other posters, MLB has effectively ruled that San Jose isn’t the answer for the A’s, unless Lew Wolff reaches an accommodation with the Giants that “allows them” to withdraw their objection to the move. He seems to have no inclination to do so… which is odd if that is where he really wants to be.
No doubt San Jose is a better market for the franchise. But they don’t own it. Just like they don’t own New Jersey, Philadelphia (anymore) or Kansas City, Manhattan, Queens or either end of Chicago.
Lew Wolff bought a discounted MLB team in an encumbered market. That’s what he owns (regardless whether he overpaid or underpaid). He has no divine right to move the franchise wherever he wants… just as no other owner could move theirs into the Oakland-Alameda coliseum without his ok.
If you can’t afford to own a McDonalds franchise and settle for an Arby’s instead, is it really anyone else’s responsibility to ensure you earn as much from your Arby’s as a McDonalds would?
To make the comparison more apt for MLB purposes, if you owned a small McDonalds outlet in an unprofitable location, should you be allowed to relocate across the street from the most profitable McDonalds in town?
Sports cartels do not operate as independent businesses. Their stadium extortion game would be impossible if they did.
Geuy, they may say that, but they’re not living in reality. If a stadium isn’t at least partially publicly funded in a city that can’t support a private stadium, like Oakland then the team need to build the park where it can pencil out privately. No amount of nostalgia changes that fact. And it needs to happen sooner rather than later if the JPA isn’t going to maintain the Coliseum in at least working order let along current MLB norms. I mean according to some reports today it wasn’t just the clubhouse that was affected but at least on kitchen that provides food to the public on the second deck also had crap backing up into it. Which moves it from the realm of embarrassing gaffe that could cause problems for the teams and the MLBPA, but into the realm of serious problems with state health inspectors. Wolff admits as much in this interview. The Coliseum is not safe for the public anymore, not until major repairs are made by the JPA. To say nothing of improvements to bring the stadium up to today’s minimal MLB standards.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/athletics/2013/06/17/oakland-athletics-sewage-lew-wolff-san-jose-bud-selig/2431019/
I’d like to think that even Oakland can keep its stadium from being shut down by the health department. But regardless, Dan, even if raw sewage in the locker room is embarrassing, how does it change the calculus here? It’s not embarrassing to the Giants owners, and they’re the only ones that matter here. Unless you genuinely think that Bud Selig is going to phone Larry Baer and say, “Sorry, Larry, the pipes backed up again, we need to take your San Jose rights away.”
JB, I guess there is so many different ways to look at what 4+ years of waiting for the blue ribbon committee to make a decision means…
One: I dont think one city is out over the other, it just means that MLB still does not believe either city can actually build a stadium.
Or
Two: San jose has been chosen but the stadium plan has not convinced MLB and the giants dont like what ever payments or concessions the A’s have offered.
To me what it says is that Oakland and the East Bay do not have a viable plan or site to get a stadium built. If not the committee would of told LW to shut up and build in your own territory. Like Tim Gunn says ” make it work” ! lol…
The A’s dont want to build across the street from AT&T from your McDonald analogy, they want to build 45 miles away in another city.
The only issue in TR is that potentially fans that love the AT&T McDonalds will now no longer make the trek to that McDonalds but stay home and go to the new McDonalds in their city. Now other than that scenario there is no other TR rights issue that comes up. Because the A’s are already in the bay area..
What other TR issue would affect the giants if the A’s move to San Jose?
Dan, I agree with you… my post was more to show what the oakland only crowd thinks when you bring up the stadium and point out facts like you have.
I know I am grouping all the oakland crowd together but thats sentiment of most of the oakland crowd when this issue comes up, at least the ones that are the most vocal.
Geuy: IIRC Wolff has effectively told Oakland not to bother coming up with a plan because he isn’t interested in staying in Oakland under any circumstances (again, an odd position for the owner of the Oakland MLB franchise to take). He might agree to meet with them and let them offer him scads of money, but there likely isn’t an amount which would make him say “Let’s do it”.
I don’t believe the Giants would suffer any actual “loss” if the A’s moved to SJ. But the Giants don’t need to prove that they will suffer a loss to prevent the move, if the public reports of baseball’s (probably unwritten) territorial restriction rules are accurate. Without getting in to matters of law and the many and various jurisdictions that may be involved, MLB seems to believe that the territory Wolff wants belongs to the Giants. And that’s the end of it, really.
I know the A’s don’t agree with that assessment (and there is some evidence to suggest that the Haas’ family’s agreement to cede that territory to the Giants was contingent on the Giants actually building and moving there…), but absent any legal recourse (which franchise owners really don’t have), what are they to do?
For what it’s worth, I think SJ could absolutely build a stadium (many have noted that Wolff says he’ll “pay for it himself”). If given a reasonable opportunity and a co-operative owner, I think Oakland might be able to build one (but not two) as well… but it would likely be a “lesser” stadium with fewer frills.
Your thoughts?
Yeah, the A’s/Giants/MLB triangle has essentially devolved into everyone holding guns to nobody’s heads in particular.
If we’re playing frictionless universe, though, could San Jose build a new stadium and pay for it with the increased revenues over the Coliseum? I’d say maybe, but it’s not a slam dunk, and depends a lot on what future MLB revenue sharing rules look like. Could Oakland? Less likely, if only because there’s less money in the East Bay than the South.
Either way, it’d be Wolff taking a gamble. Which is obviously why he’d rather play chicken to see if he can get San Jose for free. Except that nobody else is playing chicken against him, unless you count the cliff.
JB, Again all this comes down to what has the Blue Ribbon Committee been doing for 4+ years? what new information or plans are they waiting for to make a decision? They have been meeting with both Oakland and San Jose (at least a few years ago thats what reports said) with out having LW in the room. So each city could or have pitched their stadium plans to the committee. If any of the plans had blown the committee away then we would of had a decision.
So your question to what should a franchise do, is wait and wait and wait till the committee decides something heheheh…
I agree with you the giants would not be harmed if the A’s move, and I also dont think TR is that big of an issue vs the issue of viable stadium plans.
“What has the Blue Ribbon Committee been doing for 4+ years?”
I think they’ve almost made it through all five seasons of The Wire.
So that’s why Netflix share price is back up… good times, good times.
Geuy: I think they have made a decision, as discussed previously on other threads. I think “their” decision is that the moment Lew Wolff and Baer come walking into the Commissioner’s office holding hands and singing kum-bay-ya, Wolff can do a deal with San Jose.
IMO, the blue ribbon panel’s functions have been twofold:
1. Broker an easy no/low cost deal for Wolff if one is possible.
2. When #1 proves not to be the case (day 2, maybe 3 of the panels existence?), evaluate all kinds of options while waiting for Wolff to satisfy whatever SFG’s demands are or give up and look elsewhere.
It’s impossible to know, but I suspect that MLB actually wants Wolff to do a deal with Oakland… but only if the Oakland deal is “good enough” (which isn’t certain) to satisfy MLB. If he won’t do that and won’t meet the Giants demands, I’m not sure MLB should feel like they need to be in any hurry to provide him a fourth option (beyond staying where he is, knee deep in you know what).
Stadium lockerooms sits below sea level and is over 40 years old and people are surprised this can happen?
While everyone can debate who has what right to whatever market they want, this could blowup on all the owners if they’re don’t make a decision now.
Players and umpires have every right to file a labor unfair practices grievance and an OSHA complaint against MLB for putting their health and safety at risk by stalling a modern replacement for this unsafe s___hole of a worksite. That would be fun for the Commissioner to react to wouldn’t it???
JB well put, what is interesting is that then means basically Oakland is out. All LW has to do is work out the deal with LB. Which from the last year seems like LB is softening his tone. Maybe they have made more progress recently than in the past.
I know some other blogs have thrown out a scenario where the A’s play at AT&T while their ball park is SJ is being built. The rent the a’s pay now would go to the giants and probably some day game revenue. This would be part of the package to satisfy the Giants demands. I personally thought this would be somewhat far fetched but after this flooding situation maybe…
John, I think that the commissioner will just say “well its a facility issue, the a’s can deduct the cost of repairs from the rent, i dont see the issue in terms of the overall stadium situation”
I dont expect the commissioner to step up and do anything other than say “the BRC has been hard at work and that its a complex issue”. lol!
In terms of the grievances as long as the clean up and repairs are made all interested gov agencies would give the ok.
I was at the game yesterday (6/16)…the place was electric. Sold out stadium with a rocking environment. The “Oakland Only” crowd was out in full support yesterday.
The sewage issue is obviously a concern but with the help of Anschutz Entertainment Group (AEG) who manages the Coliseum for the JPA, perhaps this recurring matter can once and for all be fixed.
This is probably just the crazy talking, but I think it’s probably just a matter of time before MLB offers the Giants enough of a monetary incentive to “allow” the A’s to move to San Jose. Ironically, standing in 2 inches of shit probably increases the amount the Giants will eventually get. They’re not going to show pity here, that’s for sure.
I don’t know, maybe Sacramento isn’t such a bad idea after all. They certainly know the government up here will sell stuff to make it happen.
Why would *MLB* want to pay the Giants? What’s in it for the other 28 teams?
One time payment to the Giants to avoid never ending annual payments to the A’s.
Dan: Are you suggesting that if Oakland no longer gets MLB welfare (or even gets a reduced amount) that the “paying” teams get to keep the money?
That’s not my understanding of how revenue sharing works in MLB (which does differ somewhat from other RS sports). The net amount collected and redistributed would remain more or less constant (for a given level of “payer” revenues), only the way it is redistributed would change.
Neil, can you provide any info on this? Would MLB’s RS paying teams actually save money in this scenario? Or just pay out more to the likes of Bob Nutting and Jeff Loria etc?
Dean: It is a shame that this kind of thing keeps happening (though not to this degree if I understand the history correctly). I read on another site that stadium officials suggested it was caused by “better than expected attendance” during the 6 day homestand (ok, how long does it take for the sewage lines to empty after a ballgame anyway??) in which about 170k came through the turnstiles. If they actually meant what they said, clearly they need to reduce capacity even further for A’s games… though this doesn’t seem to have been an issue when the place is full for Raider games, which seems odd to me.
Maybe the concessionaires need to start selling low fibre fare…
If the A’s moved out of the “payee” category – and they would, because starting in 2016 if they have a new stadium, they like other big-market teams can’t earn revenue sharing checks – then the money would just go back in the system to be paid out to someone else, yes. But those someone elses would certainly be happy to get the money.
If MLB is really concerned about paying the A’s, though, there’s a way simpler way of dealing with it, which is simply to remove their exemption from the big-market rule, in which case they can’t get any checks no matter where they play. I don’t think they’ll likely do it, but I certainly think they’d do it before buying San Jose as a present for Wolff.
Good point about the Raider games, John. It does seem odd.
With the recent $1.5 billion investment from China in the Brooklyn Basin (JLS) area, does this help LW and his gang refocus on the Waterfront?
What MLB would get is a shiny new stadium in one of the highest-income areas in the entire country. Oakland and their sports complex are in dire straights.
Like comparing Hollywood with Bakersfield. I think that’s a pretty good comparison.
The Giants will simply refuse to surrender that area without a large financial reward. Without that reward, they might just as well move the time to Raley Field and get it over with. Oakland can have the RiverCats, er, BayCats.
My feeling is that LW wants no part of Oakland no matter what, Dean. But that is probably based at least in part on the belief that if he whines long and hard enough, his friend Al will give him what he wants (San Jose, free).
If he ever accepts the fact that he is the owner of the Oakland franchise and that that isn’t going to change (unless Bud buys him out…), I think there is a decent deal to be made in Oakland (and yes, the point you made about new investment does at least help I’d say). Of course, that means he’s still in Oakland.
Pretty clearly the present ownership thinks there’s another alternative. But if they are wrong about that they could do worse than a small new stadium on the waterfront in Oakland.
John, what deal do you think is available in Oakland? Last I checked Oakland was offering the A’s their current parking lot. Which quite frankly doesn’t solve many of the major problems the current ballpark faces (ie: being surrounded by nothing but flea markets, industrial buildings, and one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the US.)
Dan, I’d say Newark’s arena district trumps the area around Oakland’s coliseum, but your point is valid, it isn’t (as I understand it) exactly desirable. That’s clearly the city’s fault, as they let the Raider fans back in (just a joke, maniacal fellows dressed in stainless steel and black leather, just a joke…).
Oakland has put forward several options over the years (several of which do not involve the coliseum parking lot). Wolff has pretty much rejected them all out of hand – in many cases declaring them non-starters and refusing to discuss them. He may ultimately have been proven right about a couple of the proposed sites, but it still is stupid to be so uncooperative.
Why would the city negotiate with someone who does that? What might be the “end point” of a deal for Oakland with Lew Wolff? Agreeing to use Oakland taxpayer dollars to build a stadium that isn’t in Oakland?
If the city wants him to stay and wants him in Vic Court, for example (and I’m not suggesting that is “the answer” – the death of the RDAs probably ended that), then that should factor in to the financials of the deal he’s willing to sign. If he’s willing to build his own facility in Fremont or San Jose, but can’t get there; and if the City of Oakland wants him at Victory Court, then he should demand a better deal to go there than he would have taken for one of his preferred (non-Oakland) destinations.
It’s standard mutual gains bargaining. But Wolff doesn’t seem to want to play. Keep in mind that the “game” he’s playing is, at root, ‘how much money can I get Oakland to give me’. It costs him nothing to talk to the city, and may well be a lucrative course of action. Yet he basically blows them off, when he has no options available to him other than to “hope” his friend Bud will fix the economic situation he willingly purchased.
I understand that both Wolff and Sternberg want to have paid the sticker price for the A’s/Rays, but own the New York Yankees instead. I’d like to have some taxpayer funded agency pay to convert my old Honda into a Bentley too. But that’s not the way life works, even for those who’ve been heavily favoured by fortune.
Dan:
It’s not for me to “pick” a favoured site for a new Oakland stadium (if you are wondering why I didn’t). However, I dug this link out of Neil’s FoS archives (sorry Neil, I didn’t link the FoS article for clarity’s sake… so I’ll double click on one of your ads very, very soon):
www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_13971604
Even in 2009, Wolff was claming they’ve “exhausted their time and options” in Oakland… and some of those exhausted options had only just been suggested when they were declared “exhausted”. Those aren’t the only options presented by the city either.
Until a neutral party studies options (and a stadium construction company or consultant paid by Wolff does not qualify as neutral) in Oakland, I don’t think anyone can say whether there is a workable solution there.
Certainly an owner with an avowed preference to leave the city isn’t going to be interested in reviewing any Oakland options fairly and reasonably.
Too bad for him it’s the Oakland franchise he bought and owns. Seems like he’d have been happier owning the Rangers or Giants or Cubs or Yankees.
The only thing that actually surprises me in this is that Selig hasn’t bought him out (or offered him the John Henry “trade”) yet. I bet MLB’s view of the Giants rights would be quite different if the league owned the Athletics… but that’s a story for another day…
Thank you, John, for your insight. You clearly have great knowledge of the situation with Oakland, Lew Wolff and San Jose. I look forward to more of your comments and insights as things develop.