The St. Petersburg city council has again put a price on allowing Tampa Bay Rays owner Stuart Sternberg out of his no-talking-stadiums-with-other-cities lease provision, and the number is: It depends on when they leave, and where they go.
- If the Rays leave for a new stadium in Hillsborough County, Sternberg would have to pay St. Pete a $5 million “redevelopment fee,” plus $4 million a year from the time of the move until the lease expires in 2027.
- If they leave for elsewhere in Pinellas County, the annual fee would be reduced to $2.5 million per year.
- Moving elsewhere in St. Pete itself would be free.
This would be a bit more than the proposal that Mayor Rick Kriseman and the Rays submitted to the council last year, which the council summarily rejected. Kriseman called this “going backward,” which I suppose it is if the goal is to get Sternberg out of his lease for the cheapest price, which, wait, what was Kriseman elected to do again?
Anyway, this relatively small buyout price gap doesn’t seem like it should be a major sticking point, but you know how rich guys are about their millions. The Tampa Bay Times has already decried the council’s decision for “jeopardizing the future of Major League Baseball in Tampa Bay,” which Noah Pransky’s Shadow of the Stadium notes amounts to the Times “essentially shaking down a local government over a $15 million difference in opinions when it’s the Rays who have asked for the financial concessions in the first place.” Wait, what was the Tampa Bay Times editorial board elected to do again?
I didn’t see any mention of the ridiculous notion that the Rays get the right to redevelop the stadium site, so I guess that’s still dead. At least the council is moving things in the right direction. The mayor seems to think “No, that offer’s not good enough, here’s one that’s even less good for us” is a more appropriate response.
The reality is “The Trop” is the worst (or second worst) facility in Professional Sports (only the Coliseum in Oakland should be mentioned in the same breath as “The Trop”). The fact is the Rays will likely not be staying there until the lease ends in 2027. The only questions remaining are when, where, and for how much? One thing I do not see happening is a franchise relocation to Mexico City or Montreal (which are MLB’s answer to Los Angeles (NFL) and Seattle (NBA)). I suspect that sometime between 2020-2025 they will move to Tampa Bay, and it will be the A’s that will end up in Mexico City or Montreal.
IS there a buyout if the leave Florida? i heard the MLB commish on coach k radio show saying he would like to jump to 32 and liked the idea of international expansion, most notably mexico. Also, mentioned montreal but was key to an hispanic outreach and bridge to Latin American.
I’d say the “reality” is that Tampa is one of the more financially-challenged markets in Major League Baseball, regardless of the stadium. An expectation that a city of this business/personal wealth profile is going to support a premium seat-laden baseball stadium for 81 games a year is likely to be unmet after a year or two. If that’s the “business model,” they might as well pay the $4 million a year and move to Montreal.
I’d also say that, given this is Florida, the fact that the redevelopment rights aren’t specifically mentioned either way leaves it at probably 50/50 that Sternberg gets something.
Not totally clear on why the Rays would have any claim on them? Compensation for the disruption caused by a move they themselves demanded?
The lease prohibits the Rays from leaving the Tampa Bay area, and St. Pete isn’t offering them a buyout option to do so. So no Montreal, Mexico City, or Ouagadougou until 2027 at the earliest.
The Rays demand for redevelopment rights is so bizarre that it sounds like one of those “we’ll throw in something outrageous so they’ll be more likely to give us the stuff we really want” deals. Yet it made it into the package that the mayor presented to council earlier this year.
“An expectation that a city of this business/personal wealth profile is going to support a premium seat-laden baseball stadium for 81 games a year is likely to be unmet…”
No real reason why it has to be that kind of stadium, although MLB probably wouldn’t let them build anything less.
“…sometime between 2020-2025 they will move to Tampa Bay”
Fortunately, that only requires a move of two miles east.
How does the Ouagadougo city council feel about tax-increment financing?
David Brown: I’ve been to the Trop and it’s not bad at all. Good sighltlines, a dome to get out of the oppressive Florida heat & humidity, and the quirks of the ground rules, not to mention lots and lots of cheap tickets. It is easy to access from the St. Pete side, though it can pose issues for anyone on the Tampa side of the bay, and it doesn’t fit the skyline all that well, but as a place to watch a baseball game it is unique and I like it. I suspect that the people who say it sucks have not actually been there, and/or may be victims of the Ray’s many years of anti-Trop PR.
The only “real reason” is revenue. Presumably cutting down the size of the stadium would be made up for by raising the costs of the remaining seating to a level that would exceed the revenue earned in St. Petersburg. Getting 5k more a game at the same prices wouldn’t provide too much revenue. Getting the same number of tickets at the same price wouldn’t be much of a justification at all.
Expect a similar phenomenon to ballpark renovation in KC–where previously inexpensive seats were significantly “upgraded” in price.
I agree with Chris A. I’ve been to the trop, a packed game against the Yankees, my only issue was parking. I also think a lot of people have heard that it sucks, so they think it’s true. My wife loved the restaurant in CF, we’re going to Florida next year and plan on visiting the trop again. It actually reminded me of the Metrodome back when the Twins were trying to get a new stadium, in that, the biggest problem seems to be that the Rays aren’t trying to make it a good experience (the Twins didn’t even have an official team store). I have been to 24 MLB stadiums and the only thing I would change about the trop is adding a parking structure and some effort by the Rays organization.
What is the land worth? I’m not all that familiar with central Florida so outside of the theme parks in Orlando I have no idea what they would put there if its torn down.
It is really interesting that the people who have actually been there are posting mostly neutral or positive comments (though no-one is confusing the Trop with a luxury hotel in Bali, obviously) whereas those of us who just keep reading what amounts to Sternberg press releases about how awful it is appear to be being converted… despite our obvious suspicions that what we read ARE press releases.
The suggestion that it needs to be replaced because it is “the worst in baseball” is a logical fallacy. One of the stadia in baseball will always be the “worst”. If all 29 facilities have solid platinum toilets and one poor, downtrodden franchises has to make do with solid gold (or maybe a platinum/gold hybrid…) then that owner will no doubt claim he is encumbered…
Even the Rays lousy attendance can’t really be used as evidence of the facility’s lack of amenities (or general crappiness). Their cross state rivals just got a gift of nearly $600m Florida tax dollars in the form of a space agey new stadium… and how’s their attendance doing?
Rays try to move – I’m sure the Giants will block.
Neil; to the best of your recollection, has there ever been a discussion between Sternberg and the city/county over early termination costs (IE: leaving not just the building but the state)?
I don’t recall anything other than Foster saying “they can’t leave, and they are contractually bound not to talk to anyone about leaving either” several times (paraphrasing, but…).
Supposing the ever bendable new(ish) mayor decides no amount of tax dollars is too many to get a guy like Sternberg as his (temp) friend… do you have a gut feeling what the termination buyout might be? And how it might drop between say, 2012 and 2027?
Maybe the lessor could still play hardball about an early termination in 2025… but it’s unlikely any court would consider leaving in 2025 to be “just like” walking out in 1997, for example.
The lease is extraordinarily stringent — recall that Sternberg is prohibited from even talking about building a stadium outside St. Pete at the moment. I don’t think anyone has ever broached the subject of leaving Tampa Bay entirely, since that would be a non-starter with the council.
If Sternberg takes the bait on this offer, you’d have to see how the lease revision is written, obviously. But there are enough people talking about new stadiums in Tampa or elsewhere in Pinellas County that I don’t expect to see anyone talking about moving out of state entirely, except as the vaguest of threats.
I’ve been to the Trop quite a few times, although not in the last five years. I would rate it well below average for the current major league stadiums/ballparks.
However, that’s not its biggest problem. The Trop’s biggest three problems are location, location and location. It’s well away from the population center of the region and the drive across the land bridge from Tampa just seems to take forever (the actual time is less than forever, but close). Then once you finally make it to the St Pete side, you get to drive on an interstate that takes less time but it never feels like you are close to anything.
I believe that explains most of the reasons for the Rays have high TV ratings and low attendance in their “winning years”.
The ballpark itself has flaws such as a white roof with a white baseball and those annoying catwalks – try an upper deck seat if you like to watch catwalks, they are right in front of you. But those aren’t reasons people stay at home. I’ve never heard someone say they weren’t going to a game because an outfielder might lose the ball against the white roof.
As is true in the real estate market, the three most important things for a ballpark are location, location, location.
ALK: Pretty much what I was about to say.
St Pete is a lovely city in its own right, but it was a mistake building the venue on that side of the bay. The drive out to the Trop from anywhere on the Hillsborough side (and beyond) is a huge hassle — all the more pressing because there’s really no public transportation in either Tampa or St Pete, never mind any real connection between the two cities. The automobile is every bit as essential to survival there (and other cities in FL) as food, water, and oxygen.
I get the argument that Tampa/East Bay folks have a hard time getting to the Trop. But let’s face it – the Tampa Bay area is made up of two good-sized cities separated by a large body of water. No matter where you put the stadium, 50% of the fan base will complain that it’s difficult to get there on a weeknight. There is no such thing as an ideal site in that area as long as people have to cross a bridge to get there.
I find it ironic that the area is called “Tampa Bay” when it is the bay that is the clear dividing line between the two cities and it is the bay that makes commuting between the two cities so difficult.
The St. Pete’s location is poor, and was recognized to be a poor choice when the stadium was built. A lot of the region’s population growth has been in S. Tampa and east of the city. It is STILL a long drive from those places to downtown Tampa, or even north Tampa…not to mention St. Petersburg.
However, that is solely the team’s problem, not the city’s or the broader county/public’s problem. If the city honestly felt like redeveloping that site into something that paid taxes every day, that would be a logical decision to make, particularly if another jurisdiction paid the bills for the team.
Regardless of where the stadium goes or not, the bigger problem is income and corporate presence. For example, while the NHL attendance is good right now–it fluctuates with team performance–and the Lightning charge a LOT less per game then their competition, so the revenue is much lower. Bucs attendance has been bad for a number of years (for a number of reasons, ownership and economy being among them).
The real question is–can the Tampa region year in and year out support three major league teams at close to league-average ticket prices, plus the NCAA football that many locals put serious money into? There’s not a lot of evidence for “yes.”
TB Times op-ed was pretty darned funny. I would really enjoy listening to their editors map out their theory on why accepting $2.5M/yr is better (notwithstanding “It’ll piss off the Rays’ ownership a lot less”).
Chris A: “No matter where you put the stadium, 50% of the fan base will complain that it’s difficult to get there on a weeknight.”
The Lightning routinely draw good crowds at their venue in Downtown Tampa; people seem to be cool with the arena being located there.
The Hillsborough side of the bay, like it or not, is where the heart of the region beats.
GDub: Grim reality is that none of the “major league” cities in Florida have the money or the demographics to support more than two teams at once.
For all the glitzy, glamorous advertising that the tourism board in Florida does, most of us who actually live here make absolute dirt — precisely because of… you guessed it, tourism! Not to mention that there are maybe like 50,000 people in Florida who were born and raised in this state, while everyone else moved here for somewhere else, and are bringing their regional/national pride and loyalties with them.
I’d bet dollars to donuts that the per capita and median incomes in the Tampa, Miami, Orlando, and Jax metro areas are all among the lowest in the US. How much of that can realistically be spent on sports, especially when there are any number of cheaper, alternative entertainment options available in all of those cities?
I personally think this state is home to way too many pro sports teams, but at the same time, owners here probably don’t care as much as we think — TV money has a funny way of making the financials look better.
It’s no longer about attendance. It’s about t.v. revenue.
Lurkey, if that were true, why would they need a new stadium? maybe they should threaten to move without a new cable contract?