The news has been coming hot and heavy this week, especially if you count self-generated rumors by the Oakland A’s and Tampa Bay Rays management teams to be “news.” Let’s make an attempt at corralling all of it, shall we?
- After St. Petersburg Mayor Rick Kriseman declared that he wouldn’t engage in stadium talks with Tampa Bay Rays owner Stuart Sternberg while he’s being sued by his minority owners, Rays president Brian Auld met with selected Hillsborough County commissioners this week to discuss the possibility of reviving the idea for a stadium in the Ybor City area of Tampa that died in 2018 because nobody wanted to pay for it. There’s no sign that that funding situation has changed, but since it appears Auld made sure to meet with commissioners who he could trust to go straight to the media to say the parts he wanted (Ybor City is alive!) and not the parts he didn’t (anybody got $900 million to spare?), this qualifies as leverage, I guess. Kriseman is out of office next January, anyway, so maybe it’ll work on his successor.
- Oakland A’s owner John Fisher is reportedly seeking a $1 billion stadium in order to move to Las Vegas, according to an unnamed Las Vegas Review-Journal source. Also that “the A’s are interested in pursuing a public-private partnership, similar to what the Raiders received when they relocated to Las Vegas from Oakland,” which ended up with Clark County on the hook for $750 million; and that “there is little desire from the county to offer much, if any, public funding to build a possible MLB stadium.” Of course, if Fisher is mostly using Vegas as a stalking horse to shake loose more stadium money from Oakland, it doesn’t matter much how much money he can or can’t get in Nevada, but expect to see lots more talk about this ghost stadium in the near future, eventually undoubtedly including renderings, because just showing pictures of other cities’ stadiums really doesn’t cut it.
- Speaking of that Las Vegas Raiders $2 billion stadium with the $750 million in public subsidies, Clark County is pulling $11.7 million from a reserve fund to make its next debt payment on the building, after dipping into the fund for a similar amount last November, to cover for hotel taxes, which were anticipated as the funding source, falling short thanks to the pandemic. Boondoggle’s Pat Garofalo calls this a sign that “long arrangements between a particular business and the government are always going to be risky for taxpayers,” which I’m not quite so sure — this was just hotel tax money that Clark County otherwise could have used to spend on other things, so really there are two separate questions here: 1) Is the pandemic crushing tourism revenues in the nation’s tourist capital? and 2) did Clark County blow $750 million on a stadium for the Raiders that it will never see again? It’s hotel taxes that are risky, in other words; stadium spending, unless it can somehow generate three-quarter-billion dollars in new hotel tax receipts just from eight NFL games a year, is a sure terrible bet.
- The USL’s chief operating officer and real estate officer Justin Papadakis — yes, a soccer league has a “real estate officer” — was asked by Forbes how his league has been able to put together so many stadium deals during the pandemic, and answered, um, something about millennials and multi-use facilities, that oughta hold the little bastards. Papadakis also said that the league is currently exploring 35 different expansion targets, so maybe its secret is more about offering a team to every podunk town in the country if they build a stadium and seeing who bites?
- The Washington Spirit NWSL team moved its home opener to Houston after complaining that its home stadium in Virginia “is not compliant with NWSL stadium requirements.” My first thought here was, whoa, women’s soccer is getting into the “we need upgraded facilities or else we’ll take our team elsewhere” game, but then I noticed that 1) Segra Field, home to the USL’s Loudoun United F.C., was only opened in 2019, and 2) the “upgraded facilities” the Spirit are seeking mostly come down to having showers in the locker rooms, so clearly this is something different. (Also, the USL lets its teams play in stadiums with no running water? I guess that’s one way to get to 35 expansion teams!)
- “The White Sox took an area named for a beloved stadium worker and renamed it for Tony La Russa” is really pretty much all you need to know about this story, but Defector includes the tidbit that the Chicago White Sox also threw out the old sign honoring Loretta Micele rather than giving it to her family, plus offers another recent article on what a horrible person and baseball manager Tony La Russa is, so see those for further context.
- F.C. Cincinnati using its new stadium as a giant ad board for Old Spice? F.C. Cincinnati using its new stadium as a giant ad board for Old Spice.
- Saskatoon’s mayor says he doesn’t want to “lose the race to Regina” to be the first to build a new arena. That’s it, that’s a perfect sentence about the state of politics in North America in 2021, have a good long (in the U.S., not Canada) weekend everybody!
I truly never understood the whole tourist angle for Las Vegas with the Raiders. I mean, can you imagine this conversation circa 2019?
Wife: Where should we go for vacation this year?
Husband: I want to go to a place with top notch restaurants, a vibrant night life, and gambling.
W: I want to stay in a resort with a spa and year-round sun with pools and tanning.
H & W at the same time: Las Vegas!!!!
Husband: wait….this is very important. Do they have an NFL team?
W: No….
H: Oh….then lets go to Pittsburgh instead.
Now you have to imagine that conversation happening several million times before Las Vegas breaks even on it’s investment.
There’s competing interests you that tourists are probably not aware of. The closest comparable sports situation here would be Atlanta, with Cobb County trying to grab the Braves from downtown.
The vast majority of the tourist experiences that people associate with Las Vegas do not actually happen within the city limits of Las Vegas. All that stuff is happening on unincorporated land that the county government has protected from all neighboring cities to keep as it’s own nest egg. The actual city limits are mostly suburbs and the old “glitter gulch” downtown of Las Vegas. The only part of “The Strip” that is actually within the city is the Stratosphere Tower/Hotel, and whether or not it counts as part of the Strip is one of those old “is a hamburger a sandwich” questions that people fight over forever.
And when the “Mayor of Las Vegas” makes news for (frequently bad) reasons, people assume she is the grand poobah of the entire valley when in fact she is not. There’s even two other cities around here, one is actually called North Las Vegas and has it’s own city government.
So when you vacation here and spend money to go up an Eiffel Tower or spend money to stay in a hotel that looks like Rome or eat at Spago or whatever, the City of Las Vegas gets no direct tax revenue on it. The government demand for stadiums in Las Vegas is mostly driven by the flamboyant Goodman family who have been sharing the title of “Mayor of Las Vegas” for the past 20-ish years, trying to drum up economic activity within city grounds that they can actually tax. Former mayor Oscar Goodman in 2008 vocally imagined building a football stadium north of downtown and then trying to convince the NFL to hold the Super Bowl and every Monday Night Football game there every year.
The county wound up taking the lead on the Raiders stadium, however, and that’s why there’s not much desire from the county to raise another billion of handouts to MLB. Meanwhile, city governments (Las Vegas and Henderson) are both touting possible stadium locations in visions of commercial districts that only exist on a sketchpad.
If the number one priority is getting public money, what’s the secondary play? RSN money isn’t going to be what it used to be. If it’s about ancillary development then why would they leave the hottest real estate market in the country? What am I missing? I just don’t see how they could make a move to Vegas work in the long term.
Bingo.
From San Francisco ==> To Oakland
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/05/24/pge-sale-headquarters-800-million-oakland-wildfire-real-estate/
I still say the number one priority is to get the h#ll out of Oakland! Why do I say this? Because all this talk about public funding and ancillary development is clouding the fact that the Howard Terminal site remains the worst, most difficult site to build at in Oakland (and the Bay Area for that matter). Former owner Lew Wolff was once quoted as saying it would be easier to build a ballpark on Treasure Island (SF Bay) than at HT: the ingress/egress nightmare, vast environmental issues, active port/rail line adjacent to the site, etc. Even with $855 million in infrastructure funding it would still be a difficult site to get in/out of, especially for the vast amount of fans who would use 880 and BART.
Talk of real estate grabs and the use of public funds may generate a lot of news and commentary, but there’s a reason the A’s chose the “path of most resistance” with HT…
But if that’s the case, why go through this whole charade with Howard Terminal? It’s not like MLB is going to deny a request from Fisher to move out of Oakland, unless it’s to San Jose or another market within an existing team’s territorial rights area. (Territorial rights, not TV rights, which are more expansive.) He could have said any time in the last 15 years, “Yeah, Oakland’s not working out, we need more millennials/corporate presence/coffee bars, we’re shuffling off to Vegas/Portland/Buffalo,” and either Selig or Manfred would have helped him pack.
Points taken NdM. Simply put: perhaps the end justifies the means. If the Howard Terminal “charade” means (eventually) an increased franchise value and a spanking ballpark in your preferred location, then it will have been worth the feint and wait. BTW..$an Jo$e still has a nice ring to it ;).
Are there alternatives to keeping the team in the east bay besides Oakland
A’s could look at Fremont again. Last time they did, they were opposed by the wealthy residents across highway 680. Perhaps they could look on the other side of 101, south of the Pacific Commons shopping district. There’s still open land large enough for a ballpark and some ancillary development. It would be farther away from the new Warm Springs/South Fremont BART station but easily accessible by car from the interstate. It would be right near the border of Alameda County and Santa Clara County. This was always a strategically ideal location because it would draw from San Jose and still keep Oakland in its sight.
Andrew: They can’t make it work.
I like to think of this as Dean Spanos and the Chargers all over again (with the exception that they were moving to a much better market that just didn’t want them). Its a money play, pure and simple. “If we play footsie with someone else, Oakland will give us what we want”.
What if it doesn’t happen?
What if Oakland can’t or won’t put money (that they don’t have) into HT?
Will they take a “free” stadium in LV that will leave them with fewer paying fans than they have now?
Antonio is absolutely right about Wolff’s view of HT. He didn’t want any part of it and made sure everyone knew it. It was the city that kept pushing them to reconsider… which they have now done and decided that it could work, sort of, with $855m in subsidies.
My bet would be that Fisher really has no intention of building at HT either. He was part owner when the team looked at that option so he will know everything he needs to know about the site.
Maybe the bait and switch isn’t a relocation. Maybe it is to force the city into agreeing to put money into HT but less than Fisher wants… and then say, “Ok, but we’ll take that money and build at the coliseum site instead”.
Only Fisher and Kaval know what their actual target is. Vegas would be a disaster for them business wise. They have to know that.
It will be very interesting to see what the Oakland City Council decides on HT. T
HAA! Just saw a letter (via Marinelayers Twitter feed) from the City of Oakland to Alameda County, asking that they provide property tax funds to help with Howard Terminal infrastructure costs. If I was a resident, voter of Alameda County that would be a complete non-starter to me. “Are you %$#@! kidding me?!!”
Cue the Rays-to-Nashville threat not directly made by owner but through a local politico.
https://www.tampabay.com/news/tampa/2021/05/28/are-the-rays-listening-to-music-city-siren-songs/
The Pittsburgh PA metro is roughly the same size as the Las Vegas metro (I’d bet Vegas, growing like a weed from California transplants, will be larger than Pittsburgh in a year or two), AND it supports the NFL, NHL and MLB. If Pittsburgh can support the 3 leagues, no problem, then why would the A’s in Vegas be a “disaster” business wise? I’d also argue that the Vegas metro is wealthier than Pittsburgh as well. ?
Pittsburgh has 1,166,130 TV households. Vegas has 833,510. And Pittsburgh is easily the smallest TV market with three teams in the Big Four sports (Charlotte is next smallest, at 1,290,660).
As for wealth, the mean per capita income in Clark County is $59,340, while Allegheny County is $61,043.
Thanks NdM,
Per capita income is pretty much even re Pitt/Vegas. How is “TV households” calculated? Especially if the populations of the metro’s are pretty much even? Just curious; thanks again.
It’s from Nielsen, so it’s proprietary. But given that Nielsen is what ad rates, rights fees, etc., are based on, it doesn’t really matter how it’s calculated, only what the relative numbers are.
Anotonio they work nights in Vegas.
It’s not a choice between Pittsburgh and Las Vegas. As it is currently set up, it is a choice between Las Vegas and Oakland. In Las Vegas the team would be competing for paying fans’ discretionary income with the NFL, the NHL (2-3 months of seasonal overlap) and the casinos. While the NHL started out fantastically well in Vegas (and full credit to the team ownership and management for marketing the hell out of it), it’s still early days. Let’s see how interested paying fans remain when the initial five year euphoria wears off and they have to reup on contracts for suites and season tickets – particularly if the Knights are not perennial cup contenders in 2025. Demand may stay strong or fall off a cliff. I don’t think anyone knows how that will play out at the moment.
Selling 30,000 baseball tickets 81 times a year is a lot bigger ask (4-5x) than selling 65,000 football tickets 8 times or 18,000 hockey tickets 41 times. This is particularly the case in a market where 1/3rd of the residents are working at any given time, 1/3rd of them are sleeping and 1/3rd are in the market for entertainment. Those numbers aren’t as “fixed” as they were 20 years ago, but LV is still a 24 hour town. This makes it play much smaller than it’s population suggests.
BTW, the Pirates averaged 18,400 fans in 2019 in a jewel of a ballpark right on the river. The A’s averaged 20,600 fans in a festering hovel that the team itself says no-one in their right mind would go to.
Abandoning Oakland (part of the 12th largest CMA in the US) for Las Vegas (28th largest CMA) would be idiotic – even if you received a free stadium to do so.
None of that means that Fisher won’t do it, just that he’ll be making the same hail mary attempt that Mark Davis and Dean Spanos have done if he does.
MLB must know something we don’t know. I can’t understand the appeal of Vegas. I’ve heard anecdotes about how popular the sport is with youth but…
Yes JB, I’m fully aware that this is not a choice between Pittsburgh and Vegas (LOL). I was comparing the population of the Vegas metro to a metro of comparable size (Pitt) that does successfully host NFL, NHL AND MLB, while wondering why most here would think Vegas would be a complete disaster for the A’s/MLB. For the record, I’m not a proponent of the A’s in Vegas; as a $an Jo$e resident I’m hoping that “secretly” we’ll get another look from the A’s/MLB. We’re still the best place for the A’s to be at in the Bay Area (IMHO). The City of Oakland has had nearly 30 years to get the A’s a new ballpark; enough is enough! (again, IMHO)
The Washington Spirit game relocation to Houston is even more embarrassing since there is a fully functional stadium in DC they could have used, except DC United didn’t want to reschedule an outdoor yoga session and/or was trying to extract more from the Spirit to temporarily move the game due to DC United own ineptitude in Segra Field’s construction.
While everyone is focused on the Oakland A’s and Tampa Bay Rays, MLB wouldn’t really want it any other way, the really big news is every city in the USA gets a USL franchise!
It’s hard to believe that since 2010, the USL went from an insignificant league of 6 teams to what it is today.
Soon you too may see a USL match in your city! However, be sure to see as many matches as you can. With USL franchises coming and going like shoppers at a Costco entrance, 26 franchises having left since 2010, your franchise may not be long for the last.
Real Maryland 2010 – folded
FC New York 2011 – folded
Antigua 2013 – folded
VSI Tampa Bay 2013 – folded
Phoenix FC 2013 – USL revoked franchise rights for franchise agreement violations, failing to pay players timely and submitting misleading and inaccurate financial statements. Replaced by Arizona United FC / Phoenix Rising
Charlotte Eagles 2014 – self-relegated from 3rd to 4th tier, now 3rd tier
Dayton 2014 – self-relegated from 3rd to 4th tier, now 3rd tier
Orlando City 2014 – MLS
Austin Aztex 2015 – folded
FC Montreal 2016 – folded
Wilmington 2016 – self-relegated from 3rd to 4th tier, then folded one year later
Orlando City B 2017 – folded. In 2019 rejoined 3rd tier
Rochester 2017 – folded
Vancouver Whitecaps II 2017 – folded
FC Cincinnati 2018 – MLS
Harrisburg City / Penn FC 2018 – folded
Richmond 2018 – self-relegated from 2nd to 3rd tier
Toronto FC II 2018 – self-relegated from 2nd to 3rd tier
Fresno 2019 – folded
Nashville 2019 – MLS
Ottawa 2019 – folded
Bethlehem / Philadelphia Union II 2020 – folded
North Carolina FC 2020 – self-relegated from 2nd to 3rd tier
Portland Timbers II 2020 – folded
Reno 2020 – folded
St. Louis FC 2020 – folded. Will open as new MLS franchise.
Of the original 6 franchises of 2010 and 12 in 2011, only Charleston and Pittsburg remain from 2010, along with Los Angeles / Orange County from 2011.
Don’t forget failed USL expansion attempts like USL Chicago (everyone just stopped talking about it when their stadium project was killed) or USL East Bay (rendered meaningless when the Oakland Roots just bought the territory rights after years of not building a stadium).
With a $1,000,000,000 price tag are the A’s still going to have a pay roll of $30,000?
Don’t worry; sabermetrics will carry the team to their annual divisional round sweep in the postseason.
Neil, you got away with one in the last paragraph there!
We found out over the weekend that it’s Bad Politics to wish someone a good long weekend if the weekend include Memorial Day. Fortunately, Nikki Haley forgot to read FoS on Friday…..