What with the Oakland A’s stadium situation having already had move threats, charges of media bias, and self-destructive tweets, had you forgotten that there’s also still some guys offering the city of Oakland $92 million to buy the city’s half of the Oakland Coliseum property, which A’s owner John Fisher also wants, to go along with the half he bought from Alameda County? The guys haven’t, and now the Oakland city council is scheduled to vote on their offer on July 20, the same day as they’ll be voting on Fisher’s proposed Howard Terminal project and its $855 million subsidy:
AASEG’s leadership includes former Oakland City Manager Robert Bobb and local businessman Ray Bobbitt. Bobbitt said his group is looking to partner with the A’s to create a Black business district and redevelop the Coliseum to create a viable space that would eventually entice the NFL in bringing a Black-owned football team to play in Oakland.
Yep, it’s those guys. Bobbitt owns a bunch of nightclubs in San Francisco; Bobb is a former Oakland city official and also a former Washington, D.C., city official during the Nationals stadium debates and also a former city official in both Detroit and Kalamazoo. (Neither has anything to do with this guy.) And the pair are not only trying to win the rights to the land by promising a Black-owned NFL team, but also, for the hell of it, a Black-owned WNBA team as well:
Ray Bobbitt, founder of the African American Sports and Entertainment Group, said Monday the organization is negotiating with the Women’s National Basketball Association to bring an “African American women-led” team to Oakland.
Leading that effort is business owner Shonda Scott, one of Bobbitt’s partners and an Oakland native who played basketball at Holy Names High School.
If you haven’t heard of Scott, probably because she doesn’t have “Bobb” in her name, she’s a freelance TV host (?) and founder and CEO of a management consulting firm that “turns concepts in reality worldwide.” Concepts like, um, helping Uber expand into Oakland! And I’m sure something else too, but it’s really hard to find examples on its terribly laid out website. But yes, Scott did indeed play basketball in high school, though I can’t immediately find any statistics to show whether she was indeed a “standout” like her press release claims.
So, are these people serious? About buying a half-share of the Coliseum site, almost certainly, if only to force their way into any development deal along with Fisher. About bringing in NFL and WNBA teams … I mean, who wouldn’t want to own NFL and WNBA teams? Sure, they’d still have to pony up money for expansion fees (probably around $2 billion for the NFL, more like 1% of that for the WNBA), and then build a stadium and arena, but, you know, everyone can figure that out later, after the council vote.
As for the A’s ownership, they don’t sound all too perturbed at the prospect of someone grabbing the other half of the Coliseum site development rights out from under their noses, with team president Dave Kaval saying he was “surprised” by the scheduled council vote but that the A’s would try to work with the Bobb/Bobbitt group if they won the right to purchase the city’s share of the site. So either buying and redeveloping the Coliseum site isn’t as vital to Fisher’s Oakland stadium funding plans as he’s been painting it, or he figures he can still make money on it even if he has to partner with someone else, or he’s convinced that it doesn’t have the votes to pass. The only thing that’s clear right now is that July 20 is going to be one interesting — and likely marathon — council hearing, so book your spot in front of your computer screen now.
Does anyone over the age of 20 really believe the NFL is expanding beyond 32 teams?!
Even if it were $10 billion, it’s not like the NFL sustains itself with expansion fees like the MLS. Relocation fees are a nice enough windfall for them.
33, 34 or 36 teams doesn’t seem realistic. ~Signed, Mark Cuban
I think this is a “Dog and Pony Show” on both ends. The A’s are likely on their way out of town ( probably Vegas) otherwise Fisher would be irate over the City’s deal. As for Oakland, even mentioning a return of the NFL is simply a way to cover their you know what’s after the City loses three professional teams within a decade.
Agree on all fronts DB. AASEG would be better off trying to get an MLS team for Oakland; would be nice to finally have professional soccer back in the Bay Area. (quakes fan here)
People really need to stop making these absolutely evidence-free claims that the A’s relocation to Vegas is likely. Just pure conjecture and wishcasting.
NdM,
Perhaps the A’s dont’ sound “too perturbed” by this development because my theory that the Howard Terminal fantasy/disaster is a huge feint to get out of Oakland is correct (?). Perhaps the real prize still lies outside of Oakland city limits. They’ll make money off of Oakland somehow, even without a pie-in-the-sky ballpark at HT; flipping their half of the Coliseum site/selling to AASEG or partnering with them on some of the real estate development at the site.
BTW NdM, here in the Bay Area all the talk (i.e. Tweets) coming out of the pro-HT camp is outrageous regarding the proposed TIF districts and the $855 million in public subsidies for infrastructure; It’s all “FREE MONEY” that “wouldn’t exist without the ballpark!” Anyone suggesting otherwise is considered “lazy” and “dishonest” in the eye’s of the pro-HT/pro-A’s camp. Perhaps in the near future you could do a refresher piece on the realities of TIF monies.
The problem with that theory is: Why the feint? Fisher has had a billion different stadium deals in the East Bay fall through — most recently the Peralta Community College proposal — so if he had wanted to go to MLB and say, “I’m done, let me move elsewhere,” then he could have done it any time in the last 10-15 years.
As for TIF refreshers, I’ve already written a bunch of them, including one recently to specifically address the Oakland claims:
https://www.fieldofschemes.com/category/misc/tif/
Perhaps because “elsewhere” didn’t yet exist and/or wasn’t ready to offer up a ballpark plan/site for the A’s (?). It also helped the A’s that for years they were on MLB’s revenue sharing program; thus they were doing just fine rotting in Oakland/at the Coliseum financially; no rush to leave town. Now (as of 2020) they’re no longer on MLB welfare and need to either get out of Dodge or have Oakland sell it’s public subsidy soul for the ballpark of their dreams. A win, win for the A’s under both scenarios, IMHO.
MLB announced it would be phasing out revenue sharing for the A’s in 2016; the Peralta plan crashed and burned the following year. I suppose it’s possible that Fisher looked around, realized Las Vegas was a place that existed and thought, “Clearly instead of asking to move now I need to propose an impossibly expensive downtown Oakland plan so that four years from now it can be rejected and I can move to a much smaller city where I can get revenue sharing checks,” but it sure doesn’t meet the Occam’s razor test.
Neil
I think your rule “You do no harm to threaten to move and figure out the details later” in not in effect here. Its more like “If you want a good stadium deal this is the only community willing to give you one in the country. Its a better situation you currently have…..I guess. SO JUMP ON IT while you can”
Which is the only community? Las Vegas hasn’t offered anything, and Oakland is balking at what Fisher wants.
“Las Vegas hasn’t offered anything”
Exactly. Lost in all the column inches devoted to this is the fact that Vegas has offered the A’s literally nothing (they mused about free land, or something, but no commitment of any kind has been made).
This is franchise shopping 101. Start talking to other cities (which Manfred authorized them to do – more than a decade after they began talking with other cities under Selig’s alleged MLB leadership anyway… so what was the ‘authorization’ all about other than more column inches?) and see if you can shake more money loose from your existing home city.
It may be that someone somewhere will say “Hey, why don’t you come to Boise and we’ll build you a $2bn stadium and pay you to play in it every year”. But don’t count on it.
If Fisher wants to build his own ballpark in Vegas he might well get MLB approval to do it. But why would he? He can already build his own ballpark on the coliseum site and maintain his (much larger) market – a market which is growing wealthier and which he now has entirely to himself. Instead he’s going to move to Vegas, pay to build his own stadium, and try to make do with a market less than half the size with two other major league sports already absorbing discretionary spending in addition to the casino industry?
Never watch the hand the magician wants to draw your attention to.
“Las Vegas hasn’t offered anything. ” Do we know this as fact? Could be right…or could be wrong. We just don’t know re Vegas.
Believe Dave Kaval’s tune would’ve changed by now.
https://youtu.be/_50-gOeBilc
Antonio, you are seriously mistaken here. We do know for a fact that Vegas hasn’t offered anything that can be construed as a plan for the A’s. And more than that topline fact, we know that the type of financing scheme that helped with the new arena and football stadium has already been recently rejected by governing bodies there.
anon@313AM
Please cite your source for said “fact.” Looking forward to some good reading; thank you in advance.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/sports/baseball/as-float-1b-price-tag-for-las-vegas-stadium-source-says-2363707/
“The source said there is little desire from the county to offer much, if any, public funding to build a possible MLB stadium.
After landing the Raiders in Las Vegas and building the 65,000-seat stadium, the source said officials hoped they would be able to attract other major professional sports franchises without having to offer such sweetheart deals.”
Unless you have evidence that the city, county, or state government there has offered the A’s anything concrete (rhetorical, they absolutely have not), you should refrain from continuing to claim that a deal to move the A’s to Vegas is either likely or forthcoming.
It is possible, I suppose, that the mayor of Las Vegas has made some secret offer to Fisher, and for reasons known only to herself is choosing to keep it under her hat, unlike every other thought that crosses her mind.
That’s in the “in an infinite universe, all things are possible” sense, though. I wouldn’t want to see the Vegas odds on it.
Reading comprehension sorely needed here: I’m not claiming anything regarding Vegas! I’m just saying we don’t know anything regarding a deal, or no deal, between Vegas pols and the A’s. Yes, I read the Vegas Journal piece, but do you really believe negotiations/deals, if they exist, would take place via the press? FWIW, I’m not rooting for the A’s in Vegas, but at the same time I feel the city of Oakland has has been given WAY TOO MUCH TIME to get something done for the A’s; almost 30 years!! Enough is enough!!
As I just noted above, if your argument is “For all we know there could be a secret offer that no one is talking about,” then that’s undisprovable.
What we can say is that there is zero evidence of any offers from Vegas, zero indication that Vegas (as opposed to the county or state) even has money it could offer the A’s, and zero reason to believe that Mayor Goodman would make such an offer in private while saying nothing in public, given her love for saying things in public. But if you want to conclude from this that “We just don’t know,” sure, solipsism is a valid lifestyle choice.
Thanks NdM,
I now know what “solipsism” is/means, although that in no way relates to what I’m suggesting re Vegas. Your first paragraph re disprovable; now THAT’S exactly what I’ve been trying to get across. Thanks again.
A’s are already in Las Vegas. Aviators.
A’s as in Athletics are not moving there. Why?
Study the city’s financial statements. Since the pandemic (Coronacene Epoch), they are a mess. Las Vegas TOT this last year hasn’t been enough to cover bond payments for their current “black hole.” The resultant, the city is withdrawing from it’s Reserve Fund to help make bond payments faster than it’s draining the Colorado River (the city had to withdraw 63% of the 37.2 Mn bond payments from a Reserve Fund its TOT was unable to cover this last year). If the city’s TOT doesn’t return to pre-pandemic levels and fast, its Reserve Fund “could be” eliminated in the next 2 years (every year, the city may only increase its Reserve Fund by 9 Mn or 10%. During this last year the city withdrew 33.3 Mn or 37% from its Reserve Fund. What’s more disturbing, the 10% increase is equivalent to 370% withdrawn to make bond payments). Any ideas how the city will make future bond payments once its Reserve Fund is depleted?
This is on the 850 Mn bond payments for the Raiders Sports Palace. City cannot afford bond payments for another 850 Mn A’s sports palace, unless its TOT dramatically increase above and beyond the 7 Bn it was taking in pre-pandemic.
Plus Las Vegas has already fallen in love with another vain glory project with one of this nation’s vain glory billionaires.
https://vitalvegas.com/confirmed-critics-of-elon-musks-vegas-loop-are-clueless/
And who doesn’t want to run out right this second and buy a Tesla to drive through a one way underground tunnel in Las Vegas. Admit it. You do. You know to do. You really want to. Elon Musk wants you to.
Reality ✔️: https://youtu.be/A-SC2vtulvQ
Elon Musk. Cool! Hip! Trendy! John J. Fisher. Well, he’s ….. the GAP?
A billionaire owner of professional sports franchise is not like high stakes poker in Las Vegas. You don’t bluff. You move. See A’s, Braves, Braves, Browns, Cardinals, Clippers, Colts, Expos, Flames, Grizzlies, Hawks, Hornets, Jazz, Jets, Kings, Lakers, Nationals, Nordiques, North Stars, Oilers, Pilots, Raiders, Rams, Rockets, Rockies, Royals, Seals, Scouts, Senators, SuperSonics, Texans, Thrashers, Warriors, Whalers, Zephyrs.
You only bluff to extort monies from the current city, when you have few options, when you don’t have a winning hand. Read the book!
To be fair Oakland is currently a financial mess as well do to the pandemic. Heck, pre-pandemic they weren’t doing to well either; also doesn’t help that their corporate support/,disposable income doesn’t measure up to other areas of the Bay Area ($J, $F). That’s why the Raiders and Warriors both left to greener pastures. Oakland will pretty much have to sell their public financing soul to keep their last professional team; financial issues be damned!!!
“Oakland will pretty much have to sell their public financing soul to keep their last professional team”
Absolutely. And Fisher and Kaval are working that angle as hard as they can… I don’t blame them for doing so, particularly with respect to HT as that was a city wish list item that the A’s previously had no interest in… so, as discussed at the time, why not work with them if that’s where they want the ball club? And if they want to pick the place, they certainly shouldn’t be balking at paying the extra cost to move the team there.
I’m not in favour of the subsidy. But I do understand why the A’s are using the city’s own stupidity in insisting on HT against them. Who wouldn’t?
The real fear I have (for Oakland taxpayers) is that the city will agree to pay, say, $500m toward the HT project improvements needed, and then the A’s will come back months later with “well, we can’t build there for that much. But since you’ve already approved that money, we’ll just use that to build at the coliseum”.
I can almost see the light from that particularly freight train coming….
Agreed. There’s no city in the nation the same as it was pre-pandemic.
However, there’s a big difference between Oakland and Las Vegas.
Las Vegas economy is tourism based. Their funding, TOT, literally falls from the heavens (in jet airliners). Being tourista’s to the city, we both know this. Until the tourism-engine begins to hum along at 100% again, Las Vegas has no economy.
Oakland’s economy is that of any city in this nation (not tourism based. We both know this as well, being near Oakland residents. No one goes to Oakland for vacation). However, Oakland receives “fallout” from the San Francisco, San Jose, Silicon Valley boom going on across the bay.
https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2016/09/25/bay-area-wages-soaring-but-still-cant-keep-up-with-housing-prices/ (somewhat stale, however, still an accurate reading).
https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/05/24/pge-sale-headquarters-800-million-oakland-wildfire-real-estate/
https://www.sfgate.com/news/bayarea/article/Pg-E-Announces-Oakland-Move-Awaits-Bankruptcy-15326293.php
Pacific Gas & Electric (PG&E) isn’t leaving San Francisco after 115 years for Oakland because it’s an up and coming city. They’re leaving because it’s less expensive to operate in Oakland, all the while maintaining their footprint in the Bay Area.
Just like West Bay, East Bay also has many wealthy suburbs. Alamo, Berkeley-Oakland hills, Blackhawk, Lafayette, Orinda, Piedmont. Many in the top 100 wealthiest places in this nation.
https://patch.com/california/burlingame-hillsborough/california-has-12-50-richest-towns-america-bloomberg
https://www.homesnacks.com/richest-places-california/
Las Vegas has 3 major drawbacks as mentioned in previous comments.
It’s hotter than hell in summer.
Many who are employed work in the service-industry (unlike Oakland).
Many who are employed work nights (again, unlike Oakland).
As I stated in a previous comment, San Jose is a logical location for the A’s (it’s why I’ve taken my yardstick out to measure Las Vegas versus Oakland, not the rest of the Bay Area). However, when has logic ever played a part in professional sports.
Neil. Please accept my humble apologies. I left the New York-New Jersey-Brooklyn Nets off of the list.
Fun fact: The Chargers first season was in LA. “They’re back!”
Wow! No one caught those glaring math errors.
This comment:
During this last year the city withdrew 23.3 Mn or 30% from its Reserve Fund. What’s more disturbing, the 10% increase is equivalent to 259% withdrawn(needed) to make bond payments.
Prior comment:
To service the bond payment currently, 11.7 Mn was removed from the Reserve Account, on top of 11.6 Mn removed in December for a total of 23.3 Mn (or 259% of 9 Mn that maybe placed into the Reserve Fund per year).
The Reserve Fund currently has a balance of 54.4 Mn (minus 23.3 Mn for above withdrawals for a previous balance of 77.7 Mn). That represents of approximate decrease of 30% in the Reserve Fund in one year, when it may only be increased at 10% a year.
(The reason why we reviewed each other’s work).
Here is one thing that has not been discussed: If the Coliseum site really was an option for the A’s then the City would have sold their portion of the Coliseum to Fisher ( very much like the Angels). Instead, they are coming up with “Pie in the sky” fantasies like an NFL team.They are even playing the race card for the voters by mentioning Black owner It is all about making Fisher out to be the bad guy (just like what happened with Davis), something that Rebecca Kaplan will use to her advantage when she runs for Mayor..
A simpler question would be: If Fisher doesn’t see the Coliseum site as a realistic option then why would he buy half of it?
The group that has made an offer for it is another private entity and has nothing to do with the city (yes, one of the proponents is a former city employee. Lots of people are former city employees)… so suggesting the city are somehow “playing a card” is not factual. It is the AASEG group who are making the proposal to the city, not the other way around.
Surely if Fisher wants the other half of the site he should be the one making an offer to buy, not the city making an unsolicited offer to sell?
The A’s have already publicly admitted that the Coliseum site is viable for development and very openly pushed a plan to do exactly that.
They sure did. It was Laney College, HT and then the coliseum. That is why I don’t think “working with LV” for 2 years means a quick 15 second phone in early 2020
The A’s admitted the Coliseum is viable for development, they did not say it is viable for a new or even renovated Stadium ( minus Mount Davis). As for the Coliseum, if the City really believed the A’s will remain and play at the Coliseum site, they would not be looking to sell their portion to someone else. This is what I said, a “Dog and Pony Show” on both ends. Both sides know neither Howard’s Terminal nor the Coliseum site is acceptable for a new A’s Ballpark and it is all Sam antics about saving face and covering you know what ( especially the City which is looking at losing 3 professional franchises in less then a decade. ps. The WNBA will never replace the Warriors, A’s and ( especially) the Raiders))
Sam Antics is my new punk rock name.
Haaa semantics . I knew I messed up
Thanks. I was wondering who Sam was.
Is s/he a major player in this? I mean, I’ve never heard of him/her, but that doesn’t mean s/he is not a central figure in all of this. If advanced negotiations have been taking place in total secrecy, it seems likely that the people doing the negotiations will be a complete secret too. The agreements might be written in invisible ink, or if not invisible ink, committed to paper as anagrams using a mixture of French, Latin, Italian and Greek languages. As someone else said, it really seems like something might (or might not) be brewing here.
So I think it would be irresponsible of us all to just discount her/him as the central force s/he might turn out to be. It’s way, way too early to say that Sam won’t be central to whatever process this might turn out to be.
Anyone with an interest in the actual details and consideration that go into this should read the detailed Twitter thread that @newballpark (aka Marine Layer) did on the Alameda County Board of Supervisors meeting talking about this. It’s coming into focus that the city won’t be able to get anything done with the A’s at Howard Terminal without the county’s active participation and the county kicking in taxpayer dollars from non-Oakland residents.
These polls are incorrigible. We know the story. HT isn’t going to work with mostly private funds unless Fisher is allowed to start developing the land soon since he has to start making payments on the coliseum land or will have to by the time groundbreaking would begin. They need as much time as possible to spin whatever narrative they need to spin. LV probably can get a deal done with less hassle. What happens next shouldn’t be a mystery
Re Oakland: as we would say in the military, “What a cluster%$#@!!”
Again, why is there this evidence free belief that Vegas can and will just magically get a deal done? There isn’t even a stated preferred site for the stadium there, and certainly not one that is owned by an entity that can actually offer/use it as the site for a future stadium. You can’t even begin to talk seriously about financing without that component.
At some point all of these assertions of how easy it will be just amount to pure fabrication.
Its a “we don’t know assertion” or a “it smells like something is cooking” assertion.
One last thing Anon, even if nothing is cooking. Of all the cities in North America that are not hesitant about some form of public subsidy I would say Dallas, Atlanta and Las Vegas are at the top of the list. Maybe Phoenix too. If they do start negotiating with LV a say it goes on somewhere between 6 month to 1 year. Not the 10 years it took for Carl Poland and the Minnesota Twins. As I recall the Nationals took about 2-3. The Marlins 15. Either they get a new deal quickly or they table a new stadium for a while which I think the Saints did after Hurricane Katrina
“HT isn’t going to work with mostly private funds unless Fisher is allowed to start developing the land soon since he has to start making payments on the coliseum land…”
https://www.forbes.com/profile/john-fisher/?list=rtb/&sh=7bcf1a7121ba
I think he can handle the installments on an $85m purchase without any trouble at all.
Didn’t this guy use the term “don’t want to be a victim” when he rejected a $900 million (mostly public i think) from St. Louis and moved to LALA land. Kind of gives you the picture of what we are dealing with
https://www.forbes.com/profile/stanley-kroenke/?sh=5b7a52dc742c
In that example the proponent turned down a very large subsidy from a small market to move to a larger market and build an entertainment venue/district entirely with private funding (mostly his own).
It couldn’t be more different than the subsidy shopping Mr. Fisher appears to be engaged in.
If he ultimately gets no subsidy at all from Vegas and then Vegas grows to be larger than the MSA that Oakland is part of over the next few years then it would be broadly similar to Mr. Kroenke/LA/Inglewood.
Anyone think there will be a GAP store in the news A’s ballpark. Right between the “Officially licensed A’s merchandise store” and the Chicago Cut Steakhouse. I bet there will be.