Friday roundup: A’s bid Bay adieu, D-Backs give Phoenix the finger

51 comments on “Friday roundup: A’s bid Bay adieu, D-Backs give Phoenix the finger”

1. From the SI piece on the Diamondbacks:

   “ The negotiations over a lease extension for Chase Field once again fell upon the rocky shoals of who is going to pay for what going forward.”

   My gosh. Shoewizard59 is just perfect for what has become of Sports Illustrated.

2. Population of Maricopa County is 4.4 million. The population of all of Utah is 3.3 million. It is interesting to see the county, recognizing the leverage they have, playing hardball with the Diamondbacks.

   1. That makes sense, but recent history suggests teams will leave a bigger market for a smaller market if they get a more favorable arena deal or if the team is for sale and the best bid comes from somewhere else.

      And we have seen examples of cities that pretend to play hardball but then cave in if it looks like the team might actually leave.

      The city and state will not get a good deal unless they are actually willing to walk away.

      And that is fine. You could not pay me enough to live in Arizona, but millions of people do like it and the presence or absence of major pro sports has no impact on that choice for any but a very tiny minority. Pro sports has no impact on the economic health of that region.

      1. “recent history suggests teams will leave a bigger market for a smaller market if they get a more favorable arena deal or if the team is for sale and the best bid comes from somewhere else”

         In baseball there are zero examples of that since, hmm, the A’s moving from Philly to KC, maybe?

         In the NBA you have the Sonics/Thunder, but that was very much Howard Schultz throwing a hissy fit. There are probably examples in the NHL, but the NHL isn’t a great comp for any sports with actual followings.

         1. Does the A’s moving to SacraVegas count?

            Baltimore Colts to Indy is close, perhaps considered a down move if surrounding areas are counted.

            1. The A’s fail the “if the team is for sale and the best bid comes from somewhere else” test.

               And the NFL shouldn’t count, market sizes don’t matter there.

            2. Neil- I read it as an either/or test, team gets better venue deal or team is sold.

            3. The A’s still fail both tests, since the team isn’t being sold and the better offer came from Oakland.

         2. I meant either/or, not necessarily both/and.

            Regardless of the reasons, the point of the story is that cities cannot assume they won’t lose their team just because they are a big market.

            “Better offer” is defined by the owner.

            Las Vegas is a better offer in Fisher’s mind because he is an idiot. Just because that is not true does not seem to matter.

            But it is remarkable how many people believe him, including many in the media who I’ve heard parrot the canard that Oakland is a bad sports town and Vegas offers huge opportunities.

            The NBA has moved multiple teams to smaller markets in the last 25 years. Seattle to OKC, Vancouver to Memphis, Charlotte to New Orleans. Although Charlotte to New Orleans was more about the owner becoming a pariah.

            The Coyotes moved to a smaller city, as did the Thrashers, although that was more about the owners than the arena.

            The Chargers moving to LA is pretty stupid. It is a bigger market, but they will struggle to gain much of it, so that is probably a net loss of fans.

            Related to that, the Raiders moving from Oakland to Las Vegas is also dumb, not only because they left Oakland but because the NFL conspired to prevent them from going back to LA where they are still popular. Kroenke did not want that he wanted his tenant to be the Chargers or somebody else who would not draw as well as the Rams.

            1. I don’t really understand why the chargers moving to LA was dumb from the Chargers POV. They got a free stadium, theoretical access to a huge market. It will take 20+ years to build a fan base and probably require a handsome and charismatic QB but that seems better then whatever Spanos couldn’t nearly afford in San Diego.

            2. The Thrashers left Atlanta for 2 reasons, terrible ownership and hockey never caught on in Atlanta. Hockey is the only game in Winnipeg. The Coyotes moved to Utah for one reason, a total moron was willing to write a $1,300,000,000 check and the Utah legislature,
               SLC City Council, Mayor Mendenhalland and Governor Cox are bigger morons. Utah hockey will fail for a multitude of reasons. Utes, Cougs, small market, Grizzly tickets 80% cheaper, bad demographic income mix, skiing, skiing, skiing, did I mention skiing?

            3. It is not a “free stadium” in Los Angeles.

               It would have made way more sense for the Raiders to be the other tennant of that stadium and if the Chargers really needed to leave (narrator: they did not) then they should have been the team to go to Vegas.

               But Kroenke did not want his Rams to compete with a team with an established fanbase, so we got what we got.

            4. Just to clarify that. Yes, the Chargers are not paying rent (or they weren’t. Maybe it changed) but they also are only getting a relatively small minority of the revenue from that stadium. So compared to building their own stadium in San Diego, this is a low-risk/low-upside deal (at least as far as the stadium goes. Owning any NFL franchise is high upside, obviously).

               It was sort of explained here.
               https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28117460/inside-rams-chargers-marriage-nfl-fights-los-angeles

               I suppose that if the Chargers can actually win something – and it is hard to argue they are not at least trying – they will be able to build a fanbase. I suppose the same could be said for the Las Vegas Raiders.

               But both deals are examples of how fanbases, and therefore market sizes, do not really matter to the NFL owners as long as they can fill the luxury suites, as Neil said. I agree with that. I apologize if my original post was unclear and made it seem like I was arguing the opposite.

            5. Why do you think the NFL kept the Raiders from going back to southern Cali? The NFL doesn’t want the FBI, the LAPD, the LASD (Sheriff’s Department), and every law enforcement agency coming down on the league’s ass. Remember the album “Straight Outta Compton” with N.W.A wearing Raiders gear on the cover? That album had a song called “F*** tha Police” — the last thing the NFL wants is to get ensnared in another right-wing culture war.
               And contrary to what sportsball fans think, the Chargers have a more legitimate claim to Los Angeles than the Raiders ever have. Chargers have just opened their permanent offices and practice site in El Segundo near LAX (and not that far from SoFi Stadium).

            6. None of that made any sense whatsoever.

3. Regarding FEMA and the stadiums… I wonder how much owners will get in exchange for stadium use?

   Funny how few of the (checks notes) 30 stadiums are on the list. Guess there’s other / better money to be made. And leaving it empty during a crisis must suit someone.

4. One can only hope – fervently – that Glendale will serve as the shining example for those dealing with the Diamondbacks. Move to Utah if you want, just get outta here. These welfare moochers won’t even uphold their end of the deals they’ve already made. Trying to appease the bums will only lead to more of the same.

   1. And rocket scientists like Spencer Cox, Erin Mendenhall and Alejandro Puy might be smart enough to throw enough billions at Fisher, Reinsdorf or Kendrick to get them to move their loser MLB team to Utah. Judging by the way Utah is throwing a billion at a hockey team that was thrown out of Arizona, how many billions will they throw at a MLB team? Then Utah taxpayers will be stuck with the tax bill for decades to come. The politicians will just walk away with their luxury suite tickets. Fortunately, after the 28 year Coyotes fiasco, it looks like Arizona has learned to just say NO.

5. I was both pleasantly surprised and yet also disappointed at the great turnout for the A’s last- game-in-Oakland-for-now.

   Just under 47k. No doubt Fisher jacked up the ticket prices rather than allowing anyone with a genuine ticket stub for any game this year in for free… as he should have done.

   Anyway, well done A’s fans. You once again showed up for your team. Too bad it’s not really your team.

   And for those wondering what Kotsay actually did after the game:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maZVeNV-wXM&ab_channel=MLB

   Nice.

   Question Neil:

   Fisher has been granted the right to move to Vegas.

   He has also been granted the right to play in a AAA stadium in Sacramento for 3-4 years while the stadium in Vegas is “built”.

   When he gets to – say – year 7 or 8 in Sacramento and still doesn’t have a building near finished/maybe even started in Las Vegas, what rights does he have?

   1. They’ll never get to a year 7 or 8 in Sacramento, and maybe not even a year 2 or 3. Because the players’ union hasn’t even approved the facility yet and after the first summer playing in 110° heat on turf, the players aren’t going to allow it to continue.

      Fun little tidbit: the Bay Bridge… er I-80?… series is scheduled to be played in Sacramento over the July 4th holiday.

      1. note to those who say “it isn’t any hotter than elsewhere”. Those 100 degree temperature readings you hear bandyed about are taken in the shade, not in the sun. Most MLB stadiums do have sections of the stadium which are shaded (during midweek day games for the A’s everyone in the 2nd deck would move into the back 8 or 10 rows into the shade because of this). Sutter Health park little covering for the seats.

      2. Anon:

         Would that be the same PA that did not object to/refuse to allow home games in August in St. Louis, Kansas City, Arlington et al from the 1980s to 2000s???

         Games on the artificial turf (still relatively recent) in Busch stadium (the last version) and Kauffman stadium have regularly had recorded field level temps well over the number you claim would be unacceptable.

         It would be interesting if the PA had the power you appear to believe they do. They can certainly grieve playing conditions/facility standards under the CBA. And they may do so in time.

         But the suggestion that they can ‘disallow’ the temp move to SHP that MLB has already approved is not accurate. If you believe otherwise can you provide supporting information for this claim?

         As I understand the CBA, they have the right to grieve field and facility conditions after the fact. But they do not have a veto.

   2. The prices were absolutely higher than normal for a weekday game. I thought about going Tues/Wed vs TEX, but when the prices matched those of the Yankees series on the prior weekend, I declined. I’ll keep my already positive memories of the place, and my money away from Fisher.

   3. The only way the A’s get to years 7 and/or 8 in Sacramento is if they decide to stay there permanently, with a brand-new ballpark in place. Also, if there isn’t a finalized stadium deal for them in Vegas by this time next year, we’ll start hearing about the other 29 owners looking to force a franchise sale —

      1. Arizona Coyotes 2.0

         We need a worst owner award, nominees are

         Alex Meruelo
         John Fisher
         Jerry Reinsdorf
         Ken Kendrick
         Arte Moreno

   4. What everybody else has been saying: The A’s only have a four-year waiver from MLB to play in Sacramento, and the players union can still file a grievance over even that if they want. If at any point Manfred and the other owners want to order Fisher to sell the team to someone who’ll move it elsewhere, it won’t be hard for them to do that.

6. Oakland citizens voted for 3 women mayor’s and each one lost a sports team. You get what you vote for. Oakland knew it would take Public money…billionaire or not.. to save their sports teams amd get them new facilities. Life ain’t fair but Oakland fans are not the victims. Neil I like you but your advice of no public money has backfired in a lot of these former spots communities. I plan on writing a essay to KTVU about this ordeal.

   1. Congratulations, that’s the worst example of a spurious correlation I’ve seen maybe ever. Especially since two of those female mayors were offering one of the largest sums of public money ever spent on an MLB facility.

      Also, I have never advised “no public money,” and there are relatively few cases of cities that have refused to provide any public money and then lost teams. (In the vast majority of cases, including most of the attempts in Oakland, when a team owner couldn’t get public money they just came back the next year to ask again.) I look forward to seeing what the KTVU fact-checkers have to make of your essay.

      1. It is never really about the mayor, as an individual, anyway. It is about a coalition of businesses, unions, civic associations, clergy, etc, that the mayor has to out together to stay in office and get things done.

         Oakland is better off losing these teams than paying the ransom to these idiots.

      2. It will be up this Thursday afternoon. Another fact check. That supposed, “billion” of tax money that Tao raised is the biggest lie. It was never tangible and not one press conference from Kron or ktvu. It would have been news. Oakland was bluffing and John Fisher backed out. Tax dollars are tangible not grants. Oakland has no answers for the lack of jobs now in th city. Again very disappointed in you and in my report I will have to out the blame at your feet.

         1. Oakland had approved $495 million and the state had approved $279.5 million:

            https://www.fieldofschemes.com/2023/01/11/19554/feds-to-oakland-no-you-cant-have-180m-for-a-new-as-stadium-by-insisting-its-critical-infrastructure/

            I have no idea what “Tax dollars are tangible not grants” is supposed to mean, since grants come from tax dollars.

            1. https://youtu.be/0FMVTpyD8js?si=_cYC186xmpzEKc5G looks like AASEG is having seconds thoughts on the Colieum property. Where is the grant money Oakland was bragging about. John Fisher knew Oakland didn’t gave a dime to help contribute toward a new Ballpark.

         2. Blowing $700m to save a handful of jobs at the A’s stadium would be terrible policy. It would be better to just give that money directly to people, so get out of here with this BS about “no answer for jobs.”

            Instead of parroting racist lies as “facts” maybe read up on what actually causes cities like Oakland to struggle – redlining, “urban renewal,” segregation, deindustrialization, poor infrastructure, inequality, gentrification, nimbyism, to name a few.

            We are also the only rich country in the world to have a serious gun violence problem and the only rich country (except Scotland, apparently) to have a massive opioid crisis. Those are the result of national policy choices, not local ones.

            But sure, the problem is that poor cities didn’t give more money to billionaires. Right.

            1. This is not a disagreement with anything you said. FWIW Oakland was on a serious upswing before Covid: lots of development, companies moving HQs to downtown, etc.- it may have done better without the drags you cite, but it was definitely on its way up.
               The reactions to Covid really hurt the city, as the WFH culture definitely took (permanent?) root in the tech / white collar sector which was driving a lot of Oakland’s growth, and that just hasn’t come back.
               Paying for a sports stadium was never a good idea, and it’s even worse now.

            2. Reed. You are so wrong. I’m so glad John Fisher got what he wanted. I bet you don’t even live in the bay area or Sacramento. Sports and entertainment help the local economy in every city. Oakland has money they just want to be socialist. Oakland citizens voted for 3 women mayor’s and each one lost a sports team. You get what you vote for. Oakland knew it would take Public money…billionaire or not.. to save their sports teams amd get them new facilities. Life ain’t fair but Oakland fans are not the victims

            3. No, I am not wrong. Mountains of economic evidence shows sports are a bad investment.

               Show me one peer-reviewed study not written by a team consultant that supports your claim. I won’t wait. You won’t be able to.

               If you think sports teams are great for the local economy, you are in the wrong place.

               Cities need to invest in the people who actually live and work there. If that is “socialism” then so be it. It beats the hell out of the crony capitalism that has been ruining this country for 50 years.

               I’m so glad I do not live in Sacramento or Vegas. Way too hot, for one. California does not have enough housing and Nevada is unsustainable and built on gambling, which is nothing but a regressive tax on people who don’t understand statistics.

   2. Even ignoring the brain-dead misogyny, I have to advise you to get possessive vs. plural straight before submitting your writing to any professional outlets.

      1. I don’t know why people have such a problem with the possessive vs plural thing. It’s pretty easy…

         You never use an apostrophe to make a word plural, except when you do.

         You always use apostrophes for possessive, except when you don’t.

      2. Thank you!!

7. Gary Bettman had a big problem in Arizona. The Coyotes had lost around a billion dollars in their first 25 years in the Sonoran Desert, and things were getting worse. Alex Meruelo wasn’t paying his rent, sales taxes, hotel bills and more. Meruelo kept talking about Tempe and constantly badmouthing Glendale. Glendale had enough and threw the Coyotes out. The Coyotes landed in a college rink where they could only sell 4,000 tickets, but they had a plan for a $2.3 billion development in Tempe. Tempe voters said resoundingly no way. Then they looked at a half demolished shopping mall in Mesa, remember Los Arcos? Then a gravel pit in Mesa and finally a flood plain in North Phoenix. Meruelo was a week from bidding on the land in North Phoenix when the state land department canceled the auction because Meruelo had completely misinterpreted Phoenix zoning, and the Mayor of Scottsdale was screaming over my dead body you’re putting a 17,000 seat hockey arena across the street from Grayhawk. The Coyotes were beyond toast in Arizona. Despite all the yap, yap, yap about Houston, it didn’t look like Tilman Fertitta was getting his checkbook out. What is a poor, helpless NHL Commissioner to do? Bettman is saved, praise Joseph Smith! Tech nerd and dimwit Ryan Smith had just landed a big chunk of $8 billion from selling the company founded in his father’s basement. Ryan Smith has a dream of being a great sports guru in the center of the universe, if you’re Mormon. Salt Lake City is in the middle of the desolate Great Basin, without any decent size city within 400 miles. Meruelo and Bettman wanted $1.3 billion and Ryan Smith gleefully handed it over. One big problem, the Delta Center has just as many obstructed view seats as America West Arena. Enter the Republican dominated Utah Legislature and Governor Cox. Let’s pass a bill forcing Salt Lake City to raise their sales tax, and put on a really short deadline, we really want to stick it to Salt Lake City any time we get the chance. So does Mayor Mendenhall and the City Council come to their senses and say no, this is a foolish way to spend a billion taxpayer dollars? No, they jump up and down with excitement, we’ve found the greatest way to revitalize Downtown SLC! Tear down half of the Salt Palace and Abravanel Hall and rip apart the Delta Center while trying to fit in a hockey rink. Ryan Smith was a fool to pay $1.3 billion for a hockey team when a hockey rink won’t fit in his arena. For the taxpayers of Salt Lake City to spend the next 30 years in a futile attempt to bail out Ryan Smith is a travesty.

   1. The Salt Lake City Council is all set to ram through the tax increase Tuesday evening. The plans presented are severely lacking in detail and the controls on how the money is spent are nearly nonexistent. The 525/375 split is an estimate, and the maps presented are vague and contradict each other. Is part of the Gateway included? The block south of the Delta Center? Is phase 2 dead since Abravanel Hall now looks like it will remain? And now it gets better, SEG isn’t responsible if the sales tax doesn’t cover the $900 million bonds. The agreement goes on to state that SEG and affiliates aren’t currently insolvent or in bankruptcy, and nobody is trying to force SEG into bankruptcy. Whoopee. What happens in 5 years if the Jazz and whatever hockey club have been bleeding like a Coyote? Salt Lake City taxpayers are stuck paying off the “revitalization” of an empty arena for 25 more years.

8. 1) Utah Hockey Team being the second major sports team in SLC makes it a little bit easier to sell tickets then the coyotes being the 4th major sports team in the Valley. SLC is just not an over saturated sports market (yet). Maybe an NHL team with 41 home dates is the tipping point, but that has yet to be seen.
   2) there’s a clear model for NHL expansion (see knights and kraken), that replicable in Salt Lake. In many ways this team is in better shape, they closed out the season strong, and they have a ton of young talent. Very much set up for making the playoffs the rest of the decade.
   3) I don’t think the Delta Center will be a 2 sport facility for very long. All of these NBA owners are bonered up for the earning potential of the intuit dome. Ryan Smith will partner with developers for somewhere not downtown for a big real estate/arena project. I’m sure it will also get public money. Part of what makes that deal work is “oh well with the delta center being so busy with dates the region is missing out on concerts, we really could support 2 facilities”. Whether this is true or not remains to be seen, but fat subsidy for an NBA palace makes the $1.3 billion he paid for the Coyotes more palatable.

   1. From a quick look at the deal the SLC City Council will vote for tonight, they are making every attempt to prevent an arena at Point of the Mountain, while locking both the Jazz and hockey into the Delta Center for 30 years. The Utes and Cougs are crazy popular in Utah, so that might actually exceed having an NFL team. MLB might arrive in the Power District sooner than later. If Vegas falls through, the A’s could end up at Smith’s Ballpark while a new stadium is being built. The Power District makes sense, the area is currently a wasteland, and the location halfway between the airport and downtown with a couple of TRAX station thrown in is ideal for a large development. The so called revitalization of the Delta Center area is ridiculous. Tearing down half of the Salt Palace and duplicating the entertainment district that already exists at the half empty Gateway on the other side of the Delta Center is a waste of a billion dollars. Ryan Smith is an 8 year old kid who got too much money for Christmas and is playing with his shiny new toys.

   2. To Reid’s point above, Utah has ~3.3 million people in the entire state, and just over 1.25 million in the SLC metro area. Now, there might be fewer transplants in SLC than in other small markets like, say, Raleigh or Jacksonville, but it is still a small market nonetheless, and the margin for error is therefore incredibly slim.

      That reality does lend credence to the idea that Ryan Smith bought two sports franchises as a sort of a loss leader for a bigger real estate play. That’s where the real money would be made.

      1. I thought persons of strong faith always acted to help the poor? Surely that is what this hockey franchise thing is all about.

         Or did I read that book incorrectly?

      2. The Mormon Church preaches everyone is God’s children, marriage and families are sacred etc. This is 180⁰ opposite, take from 200,000 Salt Lake City residents and millions of visitors for 30 years to fill a billionaire’s pockets further and feed his ego that he is a great sports mogul and real estate developer. Ryan Smith is neither, he is a tech nerd who spent years in his father’s basement playing with computer code.

      3. Phoenix is overflowing with transplants and snowbirds during hockey season. Just bring in a Canadian team, Chicago, Detroit, Minnesota, Pittsburgh etc. and watch the Glendale arena fill up with the opponents fans. There is no such base in Utah. The core of the Coyotes fan base was North Scottsdale and Cave Creek area. Unless the zillionaires in Park City take off their skis long enough to drop down Parleys Canyon to take in a few Rangers and Kings games, good luck filling 82 basketball and NHL dates at the Delta Center between October and March.

9. If (If!) the A’s to move to Las Vegas will that make them the most relocated team (Philadelphia, KC, Oakland) in MLB behind the Braves (Boston, Milwaukee, Atlanta)?

   1. They are out of Oakland now, so they already have a fourth city (and if you want to count Sacramento, maybe a fifth).

10. All fans are the victims Oakland!? they are victims too its’ just that you’d think they’d learned some things.

    A’s threatened to move for decades, Raiders moved in the 80’s and them moved back and moved again this time with the NFL’s help? wow!

    Nobody learned anything from Al Davis!?

    These pro leagues are about money! you don’t have it better than Oakland its’ just that corporate America looks down on that city for political reasons.

    Its’ always get out of Oakland! that’s the smartest/ logical move. Its’ not a good business decision or/ and it’s not good for success and building a good business community. IMO…I think its’ a great sports city but critics will say its’ a big city, broke and again IMO…it has a lot to offer and has seen success and as if Oakland is the only big city with serious problems but the critics will say maybe for sports but not for the business side- the city IS broke, its’ a mess, has a crime wave, not as wealthy/ fancy or fun as S.F. or L.A., the Coliseum is old/ ugly and no businesses want to work with it or go there.

    But its’ the old owners of the A’s and Raiders they didn’t give in to this ridiculous system that these billionaire owners are selling the fans.

    Oakland fans aren’t to blame for anything and they aren’t innocent either, but they should be smarter/ wiser. Its’ fans who think they got it made, a team a new/ modern stadium and the team’s value is big. The fact is they’re being over charged, they’re seeing watered down/ mediocre product on the field and they are seeing their cities give millions away and then not have money for more important things.

    No, fans are being scammed all over the world it’s just that Oakland fans were ruined and hit harder than anybody first!

    The A’s didn’t move just because they want to look silly and incompetent, the MLB moved them too and the NFL/ owners moved the Raiders out of Oakland for reasons I don’t yet know. Maybe its payback to all the people who caused political problems for the leagues and other politicians but I do know Oakland isn’t the problem.

11. D-Backs to Oakland?

    :-D

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